Submitted by BillB on 7/20/2011

DIY Bathroom Remodel

Days 1-4 - Demo & Structural Work

Back to Project Intro

Contents

• Day 1 - Partial Demo
• Day 2 - Complete the Demo
Day 3 - Plumb, square and flatten walls
• Lost Day - Add beams under sub floor

Day 1 - Partial Demo 

To get one more day of use out of the shower, I'll demo just half the bathroom today, leaving the shower/tub area untouched till tomorrow.

This photo is after I moved the toilet and old vanity back after pulling up the floor. The toilet flange was flush with the level of the old floor so to make the toilet work I cut a small plywood platform for the toilet to sit on, raising it so it would work with the flange position.

When I pulled up the floor, for the ost part, the old CBU and tile came up together; the thinset adhesive really stuck the tile to the CBU. I got about 4 big pieces, maybe 2 feet square, and the rest came up as single tiles. The toilet flange, cast iron, was rusted and one of the holddown bolt slots was compromised but useable for now. I replaced the toilet using the bad flange and it now wobbles a bit; I'll have to replace the flange later, before I lay the floor tile when the toilet will be out of way again. I cut a pad for the toilet to sit on to bring it up to the level of the old floor and the flange. Used a new wax ring on the toilet.

Tools

Hammer, pry bar, wooden mallet, crescent wrench, groove joint plyers, vacuum

Activities

• Pull Toilet - Leave close by for re-installation later today
• Pull Vanity - Leave close by for re-installation later today
• Remove trim and drywall
• Remove floor tile and underlayment. Pry bar and big wooden mallet, (I use a a mallet to bang on the pry bar because a metal hammer on the metal bar makes too much noise) and also a 24" wrecking bar.
• Replace angle stops for vanity faucet water supply as well as the toilet. The existing noes are old and one is leaky even when it's shut off so I'll replace them all now.
• Lay plywood subfloor - don't nail it down because I'll be taking it up again later. I'll put it down now though because it's smooth and better to live with that the old 2x6 flooring.
• Put back Toilet - cut piece of 1/2" plywood to bring level of toilet up to where the flange is. (Actually, the platform is about 1/4" below the flange top, which is fine.
• New wax ring. The flange was cast iron and a bit rusted, though useable. When I take the toilet out again to tile the floor, I may replace the flange.
• Put back vanity. Hurt lower back.
• Beer. Advil.

One thing about setting a toilet: make sure the drain flange doesn't contact the underside of the toilet; but they should be close, no more than 1/2" or so. The wax ring will span the gap between the two. If they do touch, the toilet won't sit flat and stable and will end up leaking, despite the wax ring. The recessed area under various toilets differs, mine is only about 1/2" deep. Flanges should be set so the underside is flush with the finished floor; but if the flange thickness is greater than the depth of recess on the bottom of the toilet, you'll have this problem. (I'm having this issue now.) You could shim up the toilet, you'll be caulking it anyway, or get a thinner flange. I read a forum post by a plumbing pro who said he always charges per hour for toilet setting; it could take just an hour or a very long day. I've also read that flange thickness and toilet recess depth is strictly governed by ASTM standards; maybe so but I can confirm that a 20 yr old American Standard toilet, a big brand, and a Sioux Chief flange from Home Depot do NOT work together without some fiddling. Note that if you're going to shim the toilet, do it first, before placing the wax ring. Once the shims are in place, staple them down or mark their positions in case you know them out of position, remove the toilet, place the wax ring and the reset the toilet. If you shim while the wax ring is in place, you'll probably depress the ring and then raise the toilet off it while shimming, creating a gap for sewer gas and other leaks.

Day 2 - Complete the Demo 

No more tub.

To remove the shower walls, which were also tile over CBU, I'd first break out a corner with a pry bar and hammer to get access to the back of the CBU so I could pry it off. Each CBU sheet came off the walls whole with the tile. Once I got one sheet off, I'd have an exposed edge and I could just pry under that edge to remove the CBU sheet.

I didn't need to shut the water supply off to remove the shower head, tub spout and shower controls. I had to borrow a tub drain wrench from my neighbor to unscrew the tub drain before I could pull the tub. Our steel tub was light enough for to to carry out myself. A big old cast iron tub you can break up with a sledge but cover it first and wear protective clothing, eyewear, etc because the resulting shards are nasty. Of course there were two old rat nests and some poop. I vacuumed it all up and sprayed everything with a 20% bleach solution.

There was a lot of blocking in the walls that I had to remove before I could get a good idea about which walls were level and plumb and flat. I used a sawzall with a metal blade to cut nails and also just banged some out with a hammer. I got a few nail pops on the other side of the wall as a result of all the banging.

And of course, even though I saw the wire and told myself to be careful, I cut it with the sawsall; popped the breaker. I fixed it by cutting the wire at the break and taping a new piece to the end using about a 6" overlap and lots of electrical tape. I also lubed it up. I went into the adjacent room where the other end entered a box and disconnected it and pulled. Bingo, even though the wire went around a corner, the new one pulled through easily and I reconnected everything. All fixed. One lucky thing is that I had done that wiring originally and used all plastic boxes that you can screw in and out to get the box front level with the finished wall. With these boxes you can pull the box right out for easy access to the wires beihind the wall; saves you from having to cut drywall when you need to change things later.

Tools

Hammer, pry bar, wooden mallet, tub drain wrench, crescent wrench, groove joint plyers, small screw driver, vacuum

Activities

• Remove shower/tub plumbing fixtures.
• Remove wall tile in shower.
• Remove tub drain and yank tub.
• Remove all blocking.
• Fix cut wire.
• Beer. Advil.
• Begin to ponder the walls. How out of plumb, flat and square are they?

Day 3 - Plumb, square and flatten walls 

To evaluate the walls I used a plumb bob, several levels, (32", 60", 72") and a carpenter's square. First I used the square at the bottom and top plates in each corner to see if the corners were square and they were, luckily. Then I plumbed each of the walls with the plumb bob and the 72" level as a second opinion. I started with an end wall and worked my way around. I sistered new kiln dried studs that I selected for straightness to create a new plumb wall face that was flat. As I went, I also made sure the wall was flat by placing a straight edge, (a level), across the studs to make sure they all touched the edge. And I used the square at the corners to make sure the they remained square all the way up and down the height of the wall; again, I'd make sure all the studs touched the edge of the square. It's a dance and as I placed each stud I clamped them at first so I could make adjustments until I had the final position. Then I screwed the sisters onto the old studs just in case I still needed to make and adjustment later. I'll nail them off when I'm sure everything is set.

To clarify, here's the best way I found to do this. I'd plumb one wall by sistering new studs to the old. Then on the adjacent wall I'd figure out which stud protruded the most. (You can always plane them down to get them more in line.) That point will be the one I want to square to the wall I just plumbed though I'll be working on the stud that's farthest from the corner but can still be reached by my square. I'd clamp a sister to that stub and square it to the plumbed wall and then check for plumb on the sister, which should be plumb if my first wall was plumbed right. The screw the sister down and remove the clamps. Check my work so far. Now, using the square again, sister a new stud to the existing stud between the one I just sistered and the corner. Now I have a plumb wall, (wall # 1), and the first two sutds of the adjacent wall plumbed and at a right angle to the wall 1. Now I use a straight edge to continue the plane created by the first two sistered studs of wall 2 on to studs 3, 4 and 5. Note that even new, kiln dried studs can be out of true and may need a little planing. Of 13 studs I used, 3 needed planing to get them straight. If your level rocks back and forth on the stud edge, plane the stud down till the level sits flat. Don't rush it.

The top and bottom plates do need to be flush with the new wall plane because you'll be attaching the CBU to them. You can add thin material to the 2 plate boards to it matches the new wall studs; this is called firring it out. Make thin strips of wood on a table saw or you can buy "drywall shims" made of cardboard. Cardboard in a shower area scares me a bit but I used them on my top plate; no water up that high anyway. Hopefully no water anywhere. Flat, square and plumb walls will make the tiling easier and better looking.

The finished wall locations are required to determine where the middle of the shower will be and where to center the drain and shower fixtures. My wall will be : 1/2" CBU + 1/4" thinset (I'm assuming I'll use a 1/2" notched trowel) + 3/8" tile = 1 1/8" thick. Remember to add the same amount to the inside of the curb, as it will be covered in CBU and tile too. I'll center the drain to the finished surfaces. To make all this measuring easier, I'll make a 1 1/8" thick piece of wood to serve as a faux wall.

Tools

Hammer, pry bar, wooden mallet, chop saw to cut studs, levels, squares, plumb bob, clamps, screw gun, Sharpie, electrical stuff.

Activities

• Remove shower/tub plumbing fixtures.
• Square the walls.
• Watch Scottish Open, John Deere Classis and LPGA Open.

Lost Day - Add beams under sub floor 

I got out of order a bit here. This day I spent adding floor support but didn't write it up; I didn't have a photo and I decided to skip it. But I changed my mind and instead of re-labeling all the days after, I'll just stick this day in as a lost day, between day 3 and 4. So really, day 4 is day 5 and so on. This photo is from day 8 and shows a couple small beams I added.

My 1947, one story house has post & beam supports with 2x6 tongue & groove subfloor and the existing tile job has lasted over 20 years without a crack so I figure it's stiff enough. Still, I don't want this installation to fail so I went in the crawlspace and added 3, 5 foot long, 4x6 beams and 5 beams of varying length, from about 2 to 3 feet of doubled up 2x6's, glued and nailed together. Now there's no more than 2 feet of 2x6 subfloor between beams. Even though I didn't go through the process of actually measuring my floor stiffness, I'll include some info I ran across in case you're interested. Really though, I've never heard of anyone actually measuring a floor deflection but who knows, maybe it's done regularly.

Tile needs a stiff floor, which can be measured with a measuring tool; a dial indicator or a laser device. Two measurements are taken:

1. The deflection of the subfloor only, between joists. You place your measuring tool under the subfloor right between two joists. Then you create about a 300lb concentrated load, (300 lbs is a big person or two people standing close together), pile heavy stuff on a 2x4 placed right between same two joists. Then go below and read your device.
2. The deflection of a joist. After setting your measuring device under a joist in the middle of it's span, you load 300 lbs on top of the joist right above the load.

For ceramic tile, the deflection should be less than 1/360th of the span; the notation used for this allowable deflection value is L/360. So if you're measuring the joist deflection and the joist span is 10 feet, you're allowed (10'*12")/360 = .33 inches. That actually seem like a lot to me.

Note that an even stiffer floor is required for natural stone tiles, L/720. The spec sheet for your tile should give you a value for allowable deflection.

I have a feeling most people just jump up and down and if the floor bounces too much, they beef it up. You can add additional layer of 3/4" plywood but the threshhold soon becomes more like a step.

Add your comment:

Url (required)

Name (optional)

E-Mail (optional)

Your Comment

What's 5 and 2 : (To make sure you're human; not a spammer program.)

Add Comment