Submitted by BillB on 8/17/2011
DIY Bathroom Remodel
Days 18-23 Tiling
Contents
Tile Shower 
This photos hints at the chaos I created and endured while tiling the shower. That's my beat-up, thinset encrusted hand and my dirty shorts. As the job progressed I learned to be neater and avoid problems. But right now, look at those fingernails and the grubby shorts. They represent labor. All my DIY efforts are based in this love of toil and labor and physicality. I'm the only person in the neighborhood who still mows his own lawn and I have lots of respect for the mow & blow guys; except for the backpack engine racket they make. Repetition in construction intrigues me too. It's monotonous but there's a beauty in it; you can see the human hand in the finished product. I know some people who live in a 50's modern house who hired a guy to tile their whole bath in 1" mosaic but had him cut the sheets apart and lay each 1" square tile at a time. It took the guy 3 months. You might think they're sadists but they paid the guy well and the outcome is cool. Humans toil around the world. OK, on to toiling. I mean tiling.
Tile is a pain to deal with, from design and shopping to installation. What is it with tile shops anyway. Don't these people care if they make a sale? Don't they know what rectified tile is? Don't they know what size grout lines to use for a particular tile? Ever hear of customer service? Don't they have a vacuum cleaner? And same for the manufacturers. Why do I have to dig for hours looking for this info on the web and still not find it? I guess they're just not accustomed to dealing with DIY'ers. Not ALL shops are bad. One in my area came under new management and they were great. I have heard these complaints on forums too, so maybe it's not just me getting old and ornery.
So, I ended up with Crossville, Vista Americana tile, 2" x 2" mosaic for the shower floor and 18" x 18" for the shower walls and bathroom floor. I'll probably do a tile baseboard too. I went with the large tile to reduce grout lines, which to me means ease of cleaning. The slope of a shower floor dictates a tile 4"x4" or smaller and many tiles come in a mosaic version for this reason. I think I saw somewhere in Crossville literature that Vista Americana is rectified and 1/8" grout lines were recommended but now I can't find any verification. The grout lines in the mosaic were just a tad over 1/8"; the 1/8" tile spacers I bought didn't quite fill the gaps. I tried to create 1/8" grout lines in the shower wall but ended up with anything from 1/8" plus a hair to 1/16" after trying to fudge for slight size differents in the tile. I don't know why I didn't play with the tiles first so make sure they really were all exactly the same size. I've now read that ANY porcelain tile, even if it is rectified, probably will have some size discrepancies. SO, if you're using ceramic and you really don't know what you're doing, (like me a DIY'er with little tiling experience), don't try for 1/16" grout lines; go to 1/8". Some say go to 1/4".
This isn't going to be an extensive lesson on tiling. Get a book and hang out on the John Bridge forum for that. There are a couple of things I want to mention though, as they seem to get scant attention but are very important.
I'll weigh in on the floor first or walls first debate, though this issue isn't all that important. Floor. That way you know exactly where you need to start tiling the wall as the floor is installed. If you do the wall first, you have to figure out where to start and create a ledge to support your starting row. When you're using a waterproofing like Hydro Ban you can't screw anything into the wall but you could easily cut a board to size and lay it on the floor. It seems the only reason for doing the walls first is so you don't have to worry about ruining the floor tile with dripping thinset or other abuse during tiling. It's easy to tape down some cardboard so that's not really a big deal if you ask me and if you're using a waterproofing membrane, seems to me you'd have to protect it anyway and a layer of tile is a good way to do just that. Doing the floor first worked just fine for me. Pros have their preferences and, well, they're pros so I'd never question them. I get the impression most pros do the walls first but for some it's the floor.
A tip: As in all construction, get each step perfect and the next will go much easier. When you make your mud pan, make it perfectly level around the perimeter and take your time getting the slope smooth and uniform. Instead of forming your pan with mud you might use a pre-formed Kerdi tray if it works for your shower dimensions.
For the floor mosaic tile I used a 1/4" V-notched trowel and Laticrete 255 thinset. I laid out the mosaic sheets as a test before mixing the thinset and found them difficult to arrange on the sloped floor. You need to tweak the gap slightly due to the slope. But once the thinset was on, the adjustments were much easier for some reason; probably because, now embeded in thinset, the tiles stayed put unless I moved them again.
For the walls I used a 3/4" x 9/16" x 3/8" U-notched trowel and back buttered each tile. (More on trowels later.) I used Laticrete 255 thinset for the first four rows and then switched to 254 for the last two rows as the supplier was out of 255. 254 was more plasticy and actually a little easier to use because it seemd to "flow" better when pressing tiles to the wall. But it dried up a little faster and was more sticky, making cleanup slightly more difficult. They both stuck pretty well to my finger nails.
And now for what I consider the most important bit of info I can offer. I read over and over that thinset should be mixed to the consistency of peanut butter; take it form me, that's way too thick and dry, at least for large tiles. (Note the emphasis.) After a couple of rows I realized it's more like mayo that I was looking for. Or what came to my mind was "schmear", the whipped cream cheese you get at the bagle shop. I ignored the instructions on the bag, in terms of water to powder ratio, starting with about 1/2" of water in a bucket. I'd add the thinset and mix, add a little water and mix, add more water and mix, until I had the consistency I wanted. As I added more water, it seemed to me that the mix "felt" not so much like it was getting soupy, but like it was getting whipped up with air. At some point though, if I put in too much water, then it started to feel soupy, like pancake batter and I'd need to add more thinset. Like I say, mayo or whipped cream cheese was what worked for me. The ridges on the wall slumped just slightly at the bottom.
Get that first tile set right. Square it to the adjacent wall and plumb it with a level. Take your time because this is the keystone for the whole job.
For the first 4 rows up I back-buttered the entire tile. If I got too much thinset on, it'd be a chore to push and beat on it with a rubber hammer to get it flush with the plane of already installed tiles. Maybe it'd have been easier if I'd mixed the thinset a little wetter; at the beginning I was mixing it a little too thick. I even broke one tile while beating on it. On the upper rows I switched over to the 5-point back-buttering method, where you put 5 big dollups of thinset on the back; at the center and four corners. I would still "key in" a layer over the entire back, filling the waffle depressions and pressing the thinset into the tile, but I'd scape it down again. That way the thinset dollups had room to spread out when I pressed the tile against the wall and the spreading thinset would make a good connection with the tile back. The 5-point method is only good for walls, not floors as a floor tile needs to be fully supported or it may break underfoot. I've read 5-point is only for DRY walls, not shower walls but frankly, I couldn't come up with a good reason why that should be so. Maybe if you fail to maintain the grout, more water can get behind the tile? The upper rows in the shower don't get that wet anyway. There are all sorts of opinions out there. I'd still comb out the thinset layer on the wall first when using the 5-point back butter method.
Literature on Crossville's web site, the tile manufacturer, titled something like, "Installation Checklist for Large Format Tile", said to use a 1/2" U-notch trowel for tiles larger than 15". I'd read that large tile needs a thicker setting bed, which is why I chose the 1/2" trowel. A tile pro, Bill Vincent, who is active on web forums, Gardenweb and others, mentioned that the 1/2" trowel for large tiles is required because they tend not to be completely flat. That with a normal size trowel, 1/4" x 3/8", you could end up with a majority of the tile not even touching the thinset. However, I've also read that even for large tiles on walls, (and the aforementioned Bill V. agreed), 1/4" or 3/8" deep notches is just fine for walls, which would make for a thinner setting bed. I checked several of my tiles with a big square and they were pretty darn flat, so if I were to do this again I'd consider the smaller notch. Still, since Crossville said to use the 1/2" notch I'd likely stick to the manufacturer's recommendation. My setting bed ended up being 3/8" thick with the combed thinset plus what I buttered on the backs. One trouble I had is that lots of tiling advice fails to mention if the advice is for walls or floors so you might be applying advice meant for floors to walls or visa versa. One thing Bill V. mentioned is that if he was dealing with high CBU tape joint ridges, he'd go with the 1/2" trowel, even on walls.
I've read that the U shape design gets you a longer drying time, (there are no corners to dry out faster) and less stability of the ridges, (a U-shaped ridge will crush/smooth out more easily as you press a tile into it). I used that particular size notch, 3/4" x 9/16" x 3/8", because it's all the tile store had. I did a test with a 1/2" x 1/2" x 1/2" square trowel and I couldn't get the ridges to lie down but that was most likely because I was mixing the thinset too dry. So, at the beginning I was going through a learning process, getting the feel for thinset consistency and trowel notch size.
I've also read that you match a trowel notch depth to tile thickness. I've read all sorts of stuff. Thing is, it all probably works just fine. You know, if someone was to comment on this article and tell me I did it all wrong and my shower would fail, I wouldn't fret. (Unless it was Bill Vincent; I've read many posts by him and respect his opinion.) It seems that for every opinion, there's an opposite. I'm guessing this shower will out-live me.
A few tips, for what they're worth:
- Keep a good 1/8" gap between plane changes. Floor and walls, adjacent walls.
- Keep nearby, a wet sponge and bucket of water and paper towels to constanly clean up messes and a small screw driver for pulling thinset out of grout lines while working.
- Use two tools when applying the thinset to the wall, one to carry the thinset and the other to support or cradle it to prevent any globs falling. I used a 6" drywall taping knife and a trowel. Use the trowel as a shelf under the drywall knife as you apply the thinset to the wall. When you've got a good thickness applied, comb it out. I used a putty knife too for small manupulations and clean ups.
- After combing out the wall, take off a good inch of the rows along adjacent tiles so there's less squeeze out to clean up. Same for back buttering - don't bring it all the way to the edge as it just squeezes out anyway. But do "key in" thinset completely over the back. Scrape off just around the edges.
- Have a rubber hammer and wood block for adjusting the tile if necessary. If you're really swinging the hammer you might break one.
- Work fast but keep calm; try to forget that the thinset in the bucket has a limited working life. Check the instructions for how long.
- Get any thinset out of grout lines but know you've got at least a couple of hours to go back and get the bits out.
- Without a practiced eye you might miss some out of kilter situations. Take your time, make adjustments to keep grout lines even. Use give and take to achieve a happy medium if tiles aren't all exactly the same dimensions. (They likely won't be.)
As far as tile layout goes, I decided to center a tile on each wall and work out from there. I suppose if this strategy leaves you with a sliver in the corner, you'd try another approach. The tile that ends at the corners are 2 1/2", pretty narrow, what I'd consider about the thinnest you'd want. For the mosaic floor, I decided to make the drain look good and cut tile around the edges if necessary, though I sized the shower so I wouldn't have to make cuts. The kerdi drain is 4" square, designed so you don't have to cut 1" or 2" or 4" mosaics. It's best if you size your shower based on your tiles to eliminate or reduce cutting but I found that takes more care than I had to give. If I did this again I might have better luck.
In my fairly typical installation, which includes a frameless glass enclosure, the wall tile extends out a couple of inches beyond the glass. So the question I had was whether to center the layout using the glass as a border or the end of the tile installation. I decided to use the end of the tile but if I could do it over, I think I'd use the glass. I figured that while standing in the shower you'd see through the glass to the tile edge but the glass steams up quickly, creating a visual break. Also, since the fixtures are centered to the glass, they're not centered on my middle tile. Next time I'd center the layout using the glass as a border, install a strip of tile beyond that point and install the glass along that grout line.
As far as cutting tile, for some reason I've not come to terms with the tile saw. I'm an artist with a wood saw but just couldn't get an accurate cut with the tile saw. I switched from marking the cut to using a measuring tape to position the piece for the cut; I could eyeball the tape better for some reason. With wood I use a scratch awl to mark a cut and there's just no way to make such an accurate mark on a tile; not that I came up with. And a wood saw blade has square tips, points, to line up on a mark. A tile saw blade is too rounded.
Anyway, I got through it. It actually came out great. I'm tired. I'm taking tomorrow off. Hats off to the tile guys. Hope I never have to tile a shower again but if I do, it'll go much easier.
Tools
Tile saw, 5 gallon buckets, little screw driver, rubber hammer, notched trowel, 6" drywall taping knife, 1/2" drill with thinset mixer bit, beer
Grout Shower
Since my grout lines ranged around 1/8", some a little more some less, I had a problem. Regular cementicious grout comes in two flavors:
- Sanded for joints 1/8" and more
- Unsanded for joints less than 1/8"
UPDATE!
Since I did my bathroom, I found more options. There's a grout from Laticrete called Permacolor, which is a cementitious grout, not epoxy, but is used for grout lines 1/16" to 1/2" and it's treated to resist mold growth and stains. I can't say how much better epoxy grout resists mold and stains and the datasheets on Laticrete's site make it hard to compare because they seem to include different properties. I think if you're a DIY'er and are doing a smallish bathroom and you're very concerned about mold and stains, go with epoxy. Since you're DIY'ing it, the extra labor won't cost you and though it's a pain to install, you only do it once and sit back and enjoy the results. I've read that epoxy grout is overkill for a residential shower, which may well the true but why not if you're DIYing it. May as well be as protected as possible. But read on for yet another option; urethane grouts.
One more thing about epoxy grout is that is does look a little plasticky; some people don't like the look of it. With wider grout lines this may be more of an issue.
Urethane grouts like Quartzlock2, by StarQuartz, are also very stain and mold resistant and a little easier to apply than epoxy grout. I don't know much about this type of grout so you'll need to do your own research. I think you have to wait 7 days to use the shower with Quartzlock2, which is probably not an issue if you have to wait for the shower glass to be installed anyway. Another plus is that it comes already mixed.
OK, back to the original writeup.....
I didn't think using both sanded and unsanded made sense and I didn't want to risk using just one or the other. So I went with epoxy grout, which is good for all joint widths. Specifically, Laticrete Spectralock. Epoxy grouts have a reputation for being very difficult to work with but I'm sure they've improved over the years. And I get the impression from reading forum posts that Specktralock is one of the easier ones to work. A pro on an online forum said he charged more for expoxy grout but within the epoxy world, he'd charge relatively less for Laticrete's Spectralock. Epoxy grouts are waterproof and don't need to be sealed. I've read that epoxy grout is overkill for residential applications but since I'm the guy who cleans around here, a little ovekill now sounds like it'll save me time later.
I bought the Spectralock at Lowes; it comes in two packages. One is a plastic pail that includes two pouches of thick liquid, parts A and B of the epoxy and a little sponge and rubber gloves. (You'll still need more and better sponges and gloves.) The second package is a carton, like a quart of milk, that contains the colored sand. You mix the two expoxy parts, the liquids in pouches A & B, in the pail and then mix in the colored sand. About $25 for one mixing or what Laticrete calls a unit. Coverage figures are on the side of the colored sand carton but they seem slighly optimistic to me. Make sure you have enough materials before starting; you can always return any unopened extras.Epoxy grout requires a hard rubber float. I was all set to begin when it struck me that the float I had left over from my kitchen backsplash project might not be the "epoxy rubber float" that the instructions listed. Turns out, not all grout floats are alike. I got the proper one at the tile supply for about 9 bucks and it is indeed hard rubber with much harder edges than on the float I had planned to use.
My shower took 4 units of Spectralock; actually, 3.05 units, as I ran out of grout when I had less than a square foot of 2" mosaic to go. But I had to mix a full batch as I had no way to measure out a smaller proportion. I followed the video instructions on the Laticrete site and it basically took a whole Saturday, including a trip to Lowes for more grout, lunch and some PGA watching on TV. It turned out to be a fairly relaxed process, easier than I anticipated but the cleaning procedures are lenghtly.
The instructions say to do two washings with a solution of 2 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of vinegar. You're supposed to use a scrub pad for the second washing; I used two different kinds and the best by far was the Scotch-Brite pad that has a sponge on one side. And I'd say use a brand new one with a fresh scrubber pad. Also, I'd double the number of washings that the Laticrete video recommends. To check for residue, dry the surface and use a good light to inspect the tile. My tile has a matte surface and the residue would leave a shine. I'm not sure what you'd look for on a shiny tile or if this cleaning process would be as difficult. You can feel the residue too, sort of sticky.
I'd say that the first washing, 1/2 hour after application, is really more to smooth the grout when it's still very soft. Go lightly or you'll pull too much grout out and have to add more. The grout left in the bucket will only be useable for a half hour or so. The video shows the guy wiping across the tiles and grout lines but once you start using the scrub pad, you need to be pressing hard to get the residue off so keep OFF the grout lines or you'll ruin them; check to see how well set the grout is to determine how hard you can scrub over them.
I did a better job cleaning the bathroom floor; I'd learned from doing the shower. On the floor, I was careful to keep the grout off as much of the tile as possible; I just used the narrow end of the grout float. And when I did the washing(s) with the sponge and scrub pad, I concentrated the washing/scrubbing close to the grout lines where most of the residue was. I would drag the scrub pad along the grout line, right next to it being careful not to disturb the grout. Kept checking with my light and scrubbing. I'd do another scrubbing avery half hour or so for several hours; each time the grout was set harder and I could hit the lines with a little more force. Note that my tiles are 18" x 18". If you have smaller tiles with many more grout lines, this technique probably won't work for you.
This extra work up front seems a reasonable tradeoff for low maintenance later. You can see the residue on the tile in the photos above, though that was after just the first washing. I don't think I ever did get it ALL off of the shower tiles. After the two washings I couldn't see any residue in normal light but it shows up in a photo taken with a flash. Even though I can't see it in normal light, I hope it will come off over time, though I'm afraid once it cures, after 24 hours, it's there to stay.
Finished. Laticrete makes a silicone caulk, Latasil, that comes in colors that match most of the grout colors but it'll likely be a special order so plan ahead. Silicone caulk is harder to work with than acrylic or siliconized acrylic but it's not that big of a deal. Mask off the edges of where the caulk will go to avoid a mess. Again, there's a little more hastle up front for better performance and less maintenance in the future. Silicone caulk will skim over quickly, at least mine did, so tool it right away, even if your tool is your finger. There's a product to make grouting easier, CAULK-MATE but I've not used it. I will try it when I make my concrete countertop for the vanity. You lay the bead of caulk then spray it with Caulk-Mate and then smooth the bead out with a plexiglass rod of the diameter you want. The caulk supposedly doesn't stick to the sides, just to the rod. I'll still mask the sides off with tape though, at least in the experimenation stage.
Shower to Room Transition
I didn't do a bullnose at the shower to room transition. Instead I furred out the wall to match the plane of the finished shower walls. The wall is white in this photo from the drywall compound; I haven't painted yet. If you're going this route, make sure your outer tile edge is perfectly straight; use a long level as a straight edge as you're tiling. Or there are tile edgings available for this purpose; channels to cap the edge. They meake them for drywall too.
Here's how much I had to fur out one wall to account for the CBU (1/2"), thinset bed (3/8") and tile (3/8") as well as what was required to plumb it. I plumbed this wall for the shower but I didn't plumb the rest of it; now I had to deal with it. So instead of sistering new, plumbed studs to the old ones, like I did in the shower, I used cardboard drywall spacers. The furring took three layers of drywall on the top half of the wall and two on the bottom. The transition is where the drywall spacers were handy. In the photo you can see a stack of about 7 or so. The wood in the photo is the side of the window rough opening. I actually used 1/2" plywood instead of drywall on the top half for shear strength, which will eliminate any drywall cracks due to house settling in the future.
Bathroom Floor
I used Ditra for the bathroom floor. I described the subfloor in the Demo and Structural page; it's 2x6's over a post and beam system that I beefed up with more beams. I added 1/2" 5-ply plywood as an underlayment for the tile job; 3/8" would have been fine and I wish I'd used the thinner stuff now so the room transition would be 1/8" less. One book I have suggests 3/4" ply in this situation but that's just too thick of a floor and it's overkill; how would that author know the specifics of my floor anyway. Like I say, tile in this room has survived decades without fail. I screwed, no glue, the plywood to the 2x6's with a 2" screw about every 6" or 8". I can see glueing plywood to plywood for strength but not plywood to 2x6's. Also, someday I might want to pull the plywood up and glue would make that difficult. There's a controversy over screw only vs screw and glue when placing plywood over plywood; if you do glue, use wood glue and not a construction adhesive from a caulk-gun tube as it may create voids and ridges.
Going over wood you use modified thinset to install the ditra, as it adheres to wood well. I used Laticrete 253R wich is a rapid set thinset mixed to a more fluid consistency as per the instructions. The trowel was a 1/4" x 3/16" v-notch though Schluter also recommends a 5/16" x 5/16", which is a big difference. I'd use the 3/16 x 1/4; that was plently of thinset for the job.
Quick digression about trowel sizes. There are 3 numbers to describe a square notched trowel; in order if appearance:
- Distance between the teeth
- Depth of the notch
- Width of the tooth
So, a v-notch tooth width is zero as it's a point so 2 numbers describe a v-notch trowel. Just to be clear the numbers refer to (in order) the width between the teeth, the depth of the notch, and the width of the tip of the tooth.
Since we have only one bath, I was under pressure to get this done fast, thus the rapid set thinset. (My wife got a hotel room for two nights as she baulked at sitting on a 5-gallon bucket.) Schluter recommends unmodified thinset to set tile over the Ditra because it can cure without air; Ditra doesn't let air through and the tile, especially large glazed procelain, might not let enough air get to the thinset for a good cure. But, I was told that rapid set thinset, which needs much less air to cure would be fine; lots of guys seem to be doing this. Also, you can prefill the recesses in the Ditra and tile later; this improves the chances of the rapid set curing fully as you're getting the ditra filled and cured with a full supply of air as the tile isn't on yet. So I planned to prefill with rapid set first, let dry for two hours, then set tile with rapid set, wait 2-4 hours and then grout or at least move the toilet back. But I quickly discovered rapid set isn't for a novice; this stuff is amazing; sets up in no time. I got half way through filling the Ditra and aborted; the stuff was getting heavy and difficult to work; I wasn't nearly fast enough. It was fine for laying the Ditra but that takes no time and it was a thinner mix. So off to Lowes for some Megabond, unmodifed thinset.
I tiled for the next 4 hours and it was difficult going. Tiling is just hard, at least for me. Maybe it just these big tiles; getting them set level and flush with the rest isn't easy. And tiling is messy; at least I was. That night and all weekend I was beat and sore but it sort of felt good. Hats off to tilers; this is a specialty trade that I will be hiring out next time. Anybody wanna buy a slightly used Dewalt 24000?
The white top of the shower curb is concrete. As you do for concrete countertops, I made a form and used white portland cement; another whole story for later.
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